The original Tesla's had over eight thousand cylindrical cells. Many, including myself, thought this was crazy.
The advantage Tesla gained was better thermal management with glycol liquid coolant circulated between cylindrical cells. Nisson Leaf, and a few others using prismatic cells suffered significant issues with their prismatic cells overheating.
The prismatic cells you are likely using from EVE and other are actually two or three parallel cell wraps in each metal case.
The key to paralleling is sourcing matched cells. DIY'er's typically have no chance of truly getting enough matched cells. Matched cells are more than just cells with same AH capacity and 1 kHz AC impedance reading which is mostly just conductive resistance of cell which only amounts to 10-25% of operational, under load current, cell impedance. There is also matching leakage current between cells which is a criterion in China's LFP automotive specs. EVA cells are tested at elevated temperature to speed up cell self-leakage tests for automotive specs.
Manufacturing process of printing electrode 'ink' on copper and aluminum foil and baking it has a normal process net thickness variability. They can measure the lot processed laminate thickness and add or remove a wrap layer turn or two to yield similar AH capacity, but this has other side effects that cause cell matching deviations.
As you mentioned '30' parallel cells, I assume you are specifically thinking of Battle Born batteries. They have requirements on their vendors for strict lot tracking with performance and process control data, like measurements on processed electrode thickness, on each lot to facilitate Battle Born putting together matched cells.
Use case internal defects, like delamination's, or fractured electro-isolated electrodes within a prismatic cell can be viewed as similar to failures on individual paralleled cylindrical cells.
You might argue more connections means less reliability, but the spot-welding process is pretty well controlled. Many DIY'er have trouble just making a low resistance terminal connection on a single prismatic cell so even if they had matched cells it would not matter much.
I do. I own several Talentcell's. 100ah / 24ah / 12ah
Will has done a great teardown video of them. Although, obsessing over 1ah less than rated can sometimes be overboard. No low-temp protection. Then either don't use them in that environment, of rely on some other method like some SCC's having that feature, some chargers have that feature etc.
The BMS is not designed for high-C applications. Still they fit my sub-c application just fine. Interesting to note that their prices don't seem to wander in the wind.
The thought has been proposed that these are poor quality cells. The question though, is why would a manufacturer go to the expense of a nice well-laid out interior build on total crap cells? Doesn't make sense. Come up with your own conspiracy.
The funny thing is, even though Will had his reservations, when I saw the build, it prompted me to get them. For my application(s), it didn't justify getting Battleborns, as much as I wanted them. I know how to separate apples from oranges. The leads they usually supply are a small touch to help ensure that the average consumer doesn't tap on with puny alligator clamps. Minor point, but it's just a touch to help the consumer. I like that.
Being cylindrical, well there's no worry about compression.
Beyond that, get what you like. Trying to "bench race" specifications is a fool's game if you don't take into account your application and rely on suspect internet conjecture if you aren't the manufacturer. If the shoe fits, wear it. For some of my applications, the Talentcells are those shoes.
Exactly. That can change.
And sometimes you have to think like a manufacturer, not a consumer. Here is the conversation:
Bob - we're getting a lot returns. Despite our warnings not to use them as starters or motive-power things like electric ATV's, seems like people are still doing that. How do we stop that?
Andrea - simple. Derate the bms. That way it trips early in their driveway, rather than out in the desert leaving them stranded. They'll never try that again with our boxes. We'd rather that happen than with say a higher-current bms, where a guy gets away with it a few times and learns the hard way.
Thank you for providing the data sheets. I see nothing particularly troubling. Seems to pass UN38.3 if that means anything.
Is there something in them that stands out to you that we need to be aware of?
I am interested to know can you ensure all the cells are balanced as you can have 30 cylindrical cells in a battery pack vs 8 for prismatic cells??
You start with cells that are equal, or very equal to each other in both capacity and internal resistance. The rest is done by factory automation. Any minor variations are usually handled by the customer doing normal cycling, and the bms fine tuning with balancing.
If a few cells fail with cylindrical cells will this cause the whole battery pack to fail like with a prismatic battery pack or will it just provide less AH?
A few cells failing would mean an unbalanced condition starting, but the bms balancing would hide that at first. And you might see an earlier trip to an lvd condition.
Quality manufacturing, and lack of end-user abuse which can occur (say if improperly used for starting or motive-power applications) can cause these conditions beyond a manufacturer's control.
Hence it is wise to be an original first-owner, and not take on previous mistakes done by others.
What are other downfalls from purchasing battery pack with cylindrical Cells vs prismatic? Not referring to creating your own
You are prefacing this question with negatives. With quality manufacturing, *either* cylindrical or prismatic are just fine. Going too far with this becomes FUD either way, usually driven by sales teams. Don't buy the lowest rung products and do your due diligence when selecting either style for your application.
I suggest you actually BUY a Talentcell, and test them yourself. Hands-on is a great teacher.
Here is a video of them producing, sorting the core of the battery cells, etc and then some final hand-working. Nice to see that there are no kids wielding cheap tack-welders, but automated machinery.
Nothing particularly jump out regarding the MSDS.
I have Googled the company producing the cells and could not find too much information on them. They have been around for around 3 years I think.
Seems the cells are produced by:
ji'an guanjia new energy development
More just want to know has anyone had any experience with these cells before?
The Talent cell production looks good but i suppose they battery will only be as good as the cells being used.
Want to use these in a cyclical application for 12V / 600w inverter application. Average load around 150 - 200w
ji'an guanjia new energy development
More just want to know has anyone had any experience with these cells before?
Ah, ok. I suppose that only those of us using the 100ah version, AND if they have not changed vendors.
So I don't know if you are hobbiest diy, commercial concern, how critical your application is etc. Perhaps seek non-counterfeit A123 cells if you are commercial for example if your need absolutely requires you to be cylindrical ...
All I can tell you is that for my application, the Talentcell cells seem to be doing just fine.
Maybe others have experience with the cell company.
The Talent cell production looks good but i suppose they battery will only be as good as the cells being used.
Want to use these in a cyclical application for 12V / 600w inverter application. Average load around 150 - 200w
@SolarSA Ah, you got me digging in deep - Looks like Shenzen Yabopower is the parent company of Talentcell. Who also make nimh replacement batteries for early EV/hybrids, like Honda Civics, Insights, Prius, Camry's, so they are no strangers to cylindricals.
The got the machinery, staff, and expertise... just a sample:
14.4V 6.5Ah brand new hybrid Battery for honda civic -, 36 months warranty, quality and affordable price
Maybe that's why they chose cylindricals for their LFP Talentcell batts... plenty of experience in that arena.
AND, they may be relying on LFP cells from this company, PLB (Powerlong battery). Ahhh... I think I found the parents for what are in my boxes!
PLB battery is a battery and lithium battery manufacturer, provide high quality lithium battery for your UPS, solar, home energy storage, golf cart, lead acid replacement, AGV, marine and motorcycle application.
And now, if you look at the manufacturing, it sure looks similar to what is eventually found when Will tore one apart. I think his initial judgement of the cells being of possible lesser old-stock was wrong. Like I've never made a mistake in judgement, so no grudge here.
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Wow - that was fun. Somehow I feel ... closer ... to my dilithium cells....
Ah, you got me digging in deep - Looks like Shenzen Yabopower is the parent company of Talentcell. Who also make replacement batteries for early EV/hybrids, like Honda Civics, Insights, Prius, Camry's, so they are no strangers to cylindricals.
Rant:
UGH. I hate Yabo and their CCAP (cylindrical cell abomination packs). Great way to disable the cooling system completely... put one of these abortions in a Toyota pack. I ran one of these pieces of garbage for two years, and it was crap from day 1. IR variation between modules was about 30%, and it surged like crazy under heavy throttle accels due to voltage sag/recovery. Replaced it with a slap-together frankenpack of Toyota prismatic modules at about 50% SoH, and those 10+ year old worn out Toyota modules outperformed the new cylindrical pack. By the time I removed the CCAP, performance had deteriorated further and two of the cells popped their vents and leaked electrolyte.
I'm on a first name basis with a notable HEV battery builder, and almost all of the CCAP they sold came back on warranty. With Toyota, a failed pack gets you a new pack. With Yabo, a failed pack gets you a new 12S module and hours of down time reconditioning the non-failed modules to regain lost performance.
For Hondas, which were designed for cylindrical cells, as long as they ran cell level testing on the NiMH as it came in, they were okay. Notably inferior to the Panasonic/Sanyo cells, but tolerable. The issue is the 5-10% of product that came in clearly as a garbage box. Most stuff was matched, but there was always 5-10% of an order that was clearly a jumble of leftover junk. individual cell IR within a bamboo stick varied wildly with much of it out of spec. Had the builder not stripped off the shrink and tested the individual cells, their warranty rate would have increased substantially.
Screw Yabo, REO and their ilk.
There are four common types of lithium battery cells in market– button or coin, prismatic, pouch or polymer, and cylindrical. By now, you’ve probably realized that different battery-powered devices may require different kinds of battery cells. But how to know which kind of battery cells is better to meet the requirement of devices?
With competitive price and timely delivery, Xiaolu sincerely hope to be your supplier and partner.
This time, we will explore two popular options of lithium cells on the market — Cylindrical and prismatic cells and elaborate the advantages and weaknesses of them to help you pick up the right battery.
However, the cylindrical design makes space saving more challenging than prismatic cells because they use up more space in battery-powered devices.
Inside a cylindrical battery, a series of cells are combined and operate in parallel to one another to help increase both the voltage and capacity of the battery pack. Small cylindrical cells are usually found in portable electronics such as medical devices or laptops. Notably, large cylindrical cells are also chosen to power some electric vehicles like Tesla.
A prismatic lithium battery can be encased in either steel or aluminum, which mainly increases the stability of battery cells. In turn, this unique design tends to make prismatic cells thin and light, and also with the feature of space saving. The rectangular shape of thin prismatic cells offer better layering than cylindrical cells, giving more flexibility for battery design engineers. For some consumer electronics like smartphones and tablets where mobility is of great importance, the key features of prismatic cells make them typically a popular choice. The popularity of prismatic cells is also related to their large capacity. For example, a compact 12V battery pack could be easily created by connecting four prismatic cells together. Therefore, prismatic cells are commonly used in large power applications such as energy storage systems.
Battery, as the power source for electric devices, plays a vital role in ensuring the performance of devices. As the battery cells are a part of the battery pack, which is a part of the device, it means that all these parts must work in harmony. Therefore, when choosing a battery cell, understanding the needs of device, the operating environment, the chargers and other accessories are required so as to choose the right cells. Besides, before a battery cell is selected, space, cost and safety are also needed to take into consideration.
Want more information on Cylindrical Lithium Cells? Feel free to contact us.
Lithium prismatic cells are one of several cell formats offered by OSM Energy and are an excellent choice for applications requiring frequent cycling and long useful lifespans. Encased in a thin aluminum or steel enclosure for stability, the pouch cell shares packaging efficiencies of up to 95% with its lithium pouch cell counterpart PRISCore cells are a great choice for commercial, industrial, or OEM projects.
With excellent thermal characteristics, the prismatic cell requires less cooling per energy unit when compared to the cylindrical lithium cell format. Additionally, the prismatics offers excellent cycle life expectancies even under high and varied load, which typically has an adverse effect on the life expectancy of other lithium cell formats. With a cycle life of up to four times greater than cylindrical lithium cells, the cost of operation and ownership for prismatics can be significantly lower.
Available in a multitude of cell sizes and derivatives to address specific and unique performance requirements including specific energy, specific power, safety, performance, lifespan and cost, large format prismatic cells offered by OSM are an excellent choice for electric vehicle powertrains and energy storage systems.
If your lithium application requires high power, long service life and good performance, thinking less about the effective use of space, a cylindrical cell could be your selection. Otherwise, if your application needs to be suitable for a limited space and a higher price is acceptable, a prismatic cell could be better.
When you are not sure what type of lithium cell you should use, try to consider an experienced partner, such as OSM, that is able to provide a power supply solution matching your specific requirement and helps you make a reasonable buying decision.
For more Cylindrical Cellinformation, please contact us. We will provide professional answers.