KENAT
Mechanical
- Joined
- Jun 12,
- 18,387
- Location
-
US
Why were they cast - is it a shape that will be difficult/costly to machine? (Though with modern multi axis machines that's a less common issue.) Would your volumes now preclude casting as a cost effective solution?
What finish was used originally, and are there any new surface treatments that might be better?
Not quite the same requirement but take a look at thread330- for ideas.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq-
Upvote
0
Downvote
EdStainless
Materials
- Joined
- May 20,
- 16,363
- Location
-
Waukesha WI USA
Often they use Ni-Resist for cast pump impellers. This is a high Ni cast iron that has very good corrosion resistance and fair wear resistance.
What is the original producer offering you? If they are worn then you can't reverse engineer the blade shape.
Fabricated impellers are usually difficult. Even if you can get the geometry correct they tend to have issues with fatigue at welds.
You should not use a plain steel. If you really want better life then you need to look at alloys like 3CR12 or other straight Cr stainless grades.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Plymouth Tube
Upvote
0
Downvote
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
- Joined
- Aug 29,
- 14,450
- Location
-
US
is definitely not the hot setup.
You need to do some industrial archaeology. Dig through the purchase records of the company until you find what material was originally specified for the pumps, and whatever was specified for the previous set of impellers.
You will probably find that the extant impellers are not generic 'cast iron', but a high tech abrasion resistant alloy that costs even more than stainless steel.
Whatever it is, work from there.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Upvote
0
Downvote
rmw
Mechanical
- Joined
- Feb 6,
- 5,724
- Location
-
US
Nagle Pumps had a 28% Chrome hard iron impeller material that they used for slurry and mining pumps. Pretty doggoned tough stuff. I remember one nationally recognized pump repair company at a loss of what to do with it because they had never seen a CI impeller that hard.
rmw
Upvote
0
Downvote
Pumpsonly
Mechanical
- Joined
- Mar 25,
- 373
- Location
-
MY
So your pumps see some thing more than just water..
Warman pumps used Ni-hard for their slurry pumps.
Upvote
0
Downvote
strider6
Materials
- Joined
- May 4,
- 616
- Location
-
IT
I agree that carbon steel is not an option and you should go at least to the Ni resist, or improve to higher alloy, but you should define better what you mean with "nasty fluid" if you want to make a good material selection
hope this help
S
Corrosion Control
Upvote
0
Downvote
It seems the cast impellar is generally considered to be better than the stamped steel ones.
Since the remanufactured cast units have had the long edges of the impellar ground down to make them look better/newer they are less efficient since this process increases the distance from the impellar to the pump body and thus allows water to bypass the vanes.
I can get new stamped steel pumps but no new cast ones.
It seems since the steel version has less mass/thickness to it it also allows more water to be moved. Of course this depends on the shape of the vanes.
Can someone explain why the cast ones are better???
Thanks
Darrell
This is mostly my opinion, but...
One arguement is that the stock units were cast, at least if you look at the original manuals. I tend to think that the people that created these engines seemed to know what they were doing, based on their longevity and performance.
I'm not sure your remark about the cast ones being reground to look nicer is accurate. The last one I bought sure looked new to me, not only because it was pretty, but also it differed in slightly in design. The rake of the vanes were not the same as the original factory one I had, shaft it rode on was a different size, and the vanes reached a smaller diameter than the original. Plus, when I installed mine with a gasket on the benchtop for curiosity's sake, I noticed it fit very tightly at the vanes and their mating surface. The stamped steel unit, by contrast, was more of a paddle than anything else, that sorta fit in that spot. Also, if you notice, the vanes create a shape that maintains consistent volume across the travel. The unit I bought would slightly widen the path as it became shallower, moving from center to perimenter.
If you ever open a high volume pump for moving water or similiar liquids (ie, not hydraulic) you'll see the same impeller design. Same thing goes for biomedical grade pumps that are extremely accurate in their volume rates. Generally, any lab pump that costs real money has that design.
Bottom line, though, is that when I installed it, I noticed that the engine ran a little cooler at low rpms, and when it did get warm, it would drop dramatically quicker when the load decreased. And I think that tends to be the experience most members on this board would attest to.
Hope that helps.
scott
I've seen NO difference in performance as related to engine cooling. I've used both. You could measure say with a flow meter, an electric motor with a watt meter for energy draw, and a glycol mix at
operating temperature to accurately see a possible difference. IH spec'd 80 gpm at an engine rpm of 4K. Even then I'm sure the tolerance is fairly wide with 80 gpm being the minimum and that may account for subtle differences. It's rolling stock, not a race car. Impeller performance is based on the number of and curve of the vanes, diameter, and clearance to the volute etc. Brand X my have a wider clearance, but maybe for THAT particular impeller it works the same as a
similar one that needs a tighter tolerance. It doesn't necessesarily point to quality; though tolerance issues could equally apply as in how well they're made. One point, I made a similar modeling clay deal to see the clearance to the volute. The old cast vane and the new steel one both had the same .062" or approx 1/16". There are too many variables to say claims of superior design as we never know the root before and after, a person's cooling system health and so on.
If a lot of guys like the cast, and a lot of guys like the stamped, it ain't the pump; jes' guys lik'in to jaw.
This reminds me of the old argument about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin!
My procedure? Buy a water pump. Install it. 150,000 miles later, replace it.
Who cares which is better? They all work well if your cooling system is in good order.
If this was the case I would not post it! I've got better things to do.
I like Greg's idea of building a test fixture to test the pumps capacitity at a given RPM. (Oh FYI my cooling system is as new as you can get with "everything" having been rebuilt or replaced, yes including the engine) But with what I would call marginal cooling. As for testing pumps, I even have an old block that's in good shape I could use to provide the proper test bed, but I think I going to buy an Airtek pump first and see how that works first.
R290 has brought up a good point, running clearances. The pictures from the manual shows that both styles were used. What was NOT ever discussed in older threads was the
FITMENT There could be a variance in assembly. Both styles work, but a new one not seeming to move enough coolant could be traced to a root cause in assembly specs whether a reman or new. Running clearance in any pump is key to where it'll place on it's curve. I misquoted my measurements. I looked up the notes I made back in '06 or so and they were actually closer to book spec, maybe the .062 was a s moment on the shim. If the clearance is large, then the impeller is pressed on too far. Seeing that the steel impeller can get ruined taking it off to start over, that's an oppurtunity to fudge it.
so the shims are not in correct i guess
There are no shims in the final assembly, they're for setup.
Edit... What was NOT ever discussed in older threads was the FITMENT. Both styles work, but a new one not seeming to move enough coolant could be traced to a root cause in assembly specs whether a reman or new. Running clearance in any pump is key to where it'll place on it's curve.
As you can see mine is not even close to spec. On a ScoutII the cross flow radiator prevents you from getting a good visual inspection of the flow, unlike a down flow radiator.
So all you folks living in colder climate and the heater is not working so good, might just need to check the pump impeller clearance. I've read a few of those post and thought it was the heater core, but maybe its the pump
Once I get either a new pump or fix mine I will post up.
(anybody know where I can buy a new impeller? online would be nice.)