3 hours ago, Jim D. said:I have not had any success getting a response from Tomric on another custom project
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That sucks. Did you use the contact form on the website or just ?
I've been working with Jennine - jTaberski@tomric dot com. Tell her Andrea at Dolcetta sent you. It's a little frustrating to work through a rep rather than directly with the designer, but we are getting close - I'm awaiting a cavity sample of the latest version. And I don't know where I got that "less than $10", maybe for very thin molds but I'm going heavier gauge and buying less than 100 so mine will be closer to $15 each plus around $700 total tooling & die making expenses. This is for the cheaper thermoformed molds, not the injection molds that we are used to from Chocolate World etc.
I don't have the impression that you're doing very high volume so the overhead at tomric or micelli may be prohibitive if you only want 10 of something. Is there anyone in your area with a 3D printer that could help? Or experienced with silicone mold making? I met a soap maker at a holiday show who made all his own really detailed molds and does custom work, I'll see if I can find a name, might be worth contacting just to see your range of options.
Can I ask what you're hoping to
make?
9 minutes ago, pastrygirl said:That sucks. Did you use the contact form on the website or just ?
I've been working with Jennine - jTaberski@tomric dot com. Tell her Andrea at Dolcetta sent you. It's a little frustrating to work through a rep rather than directly with the designer, but we are getting close - I'm awaiting a cavity sample of the latest version. And I don't know where I got that "less than $10", maybe for very thin molds but I'm going heavier gauge and buying less than 100 so mine will be closer to $15 each plus around $700 total tooling & die making expenses. This is for the cheaper thermoformed molds, not the injection molds that we are used to from Chocolate World etc.
I don't have the impression that you're doing very high volume so the overhead at tomric or micelli may be prohibitive if you only want 10 of something. Is there anyone in your area with a 3D printer that could help? Or experienced with silicone mold making? I met a soap maker at a holiday show who made all his own really detailed molds and does custom work, I'll see if I can find a name, might be worth contacting just to see your range of options.
Can I ask what you're hoping to
make?
Thanks for the reply and helpful suggestions. I have sent a quote request to Micelli. They are somewhat expensive ($4,250 for 100 custom molds)--but I say "somewhat" because that comes out to $42.50 per mold, which is not that much more than some vendors charge for stock molds. I do like the fact that--unlike any other custom manufacturer I have encountered--they actually provide an estimated price on their website. You are correct that my volume doesn't justify buying so many molds, but I am working on increasing sales and if these molds were to turn out as I imagine, they would become my go-to mold. Or perhaps I could sell some of the molds to others. The long version of the story: At the Vegas workshop in May, literally every chocolatier we encountered used demisphere molds, and after watching Jin, Melissa, and Lionel (who works with Jean-Marie Auboine) decorate demispheres, I fully understand why this is THE mold (at one point I was in JMA's "mold closet" and couldn't even count the demispheres). These molds make decorating with cocoa butter so much easier and more attractive (in both hand-decorating and spray- painting applications). The three of them used what appeared to be Chocolate World's # (30mm in diameter) , and Melissa Coppel also used # (39mm) for her more elaborate decorations. I produce larger chocolates than a 30mm demisphere makes (9 grams), but a 39mm one (19 grams) would be out of proportion to my other chocolates. Thus the quest for something in between (I'm thinking 34mm, which I'm estimating would be about 14 grams).
I will try Tomric once more. But I do not understand companies that do not respond to contact forms, emails, or calls--I tried all three--and am not sure what more I can do aside from flying to Buffalo and knocking down the door. I did get one reply to a contact form asking for more info, but when I provided that, I heard nothing more. In contrast, yesterday I contacted a thermoforming company about another project, had a response within an hour or so, and am well on the way to getting an estimate.
Well at least hemispheres should be super easy for design once someone does actually respond. It sucks to feel ignored, especially when there are so few options for this service.
I found the soap guy I was thinking of, not what you need for this, but if you ever want to make your favorite pet/car/creature in chocolate ... I believe he hand-carves in clay then makes a silicone mold. https://sculpturesoap.com/
Anyway, are you stuck on hemispheres or do taller domes appeal? Sounds like you want 15 grams plus or minus 1 or 2? The CW is one I like, I just weighed a few pieces that came in at 12 grams. http://www.chocolat-chocolat.com/home/chocolate-molds/chocolate-molds-chocolate-world/cw-to-cw/p.html
CW looks good
http://shop.tomric.com/Product/I-/Dome_Mold.aspx
https://www.pastrychefsboutique.com/chocolate-world/-chocolate-world-cw-polycarbonate-chocolate-dome-mold29x25-mm-24-cavity-15g-modern-shaped-molds.html
also & : http://www.chocolateworld.be/en/add.asp?g=praline+moulds&cat=Spheres
I mean, if it's worth it to you to pay extra to get exactly what you want, I don't want to discourage you, and you may very well be able to sell the extra molds. I'm doing custom bar molds because I didn't find anything in the right weight range that felt special enough yet not a nightmare to polish. I'm going to focus on acquiring new wholesale accounts in the fall with the new bars in new packaging plus nutrition info, so hopefully the investment will pay off. But I don't buy those $50 chocolate molds you speak of, I much prefer $20-25 so I can get more of them, or other toys, like a large stone remnant for the kitchen that I need to figure out how to lift onto the table without breaking ... today's challenge!
Edited June 2, by pastrygirlI have the 15g and 18g domes. The latter are a little large, though they come in handy for Greweling's recipe where he calls for submerging a whole hazelnut in ganache. But it's the shape I am concerned about at this point. I know you have taken a Coppel class and probably saw her paint with a foam brush meticulous lines and other shapes in a demisphere (or hemisphere) mold; that's practically impossible to do in a dome. And airbrushing a dome usually means (for me) unsprayed areas and/or streaking of the cocoa butter. This tends not to happen so much in a half-sphere. I'll see how the estimates come in.
Since this is the custom mold topic -
I've gone through a couple of design stages with Tomric and have the pretty bar without too many corners I was looking for. I've been doing the cheaper thermo-formed molds instead of the injection polycarbonate that we are used to in professional molds because of price, but now I'm so torn. I've been trying to convince myself I can make them work, and I'm sure I can, but I also want durability and what can I say, I like nice toys. I usually hold molds in my left hand and scrape with my right. These feel unstable for that, I'll try a bar or rack over my melter to rest them on while scraping.
If I stay with the cheap ones, total project is around $ for 60 molds. If I switch now, it's another $800. Which isn't that much if I sell tens of thousands of chocolate bars over the next few years, which of course is the plan. Will I be happier making them all with heavier molds? Hmmm.
What would you do? Stay cheap or go big?
@pastrygirl, I have now gone through most of the process of having a custom injection mold made through Tomric and can probably answer some questions. I say "through Tomric" because it turned out that apparently Chocolate World actually makes the molds. It has been a lengthy process, and we are now quite a bit behind schedule. Apparently the Belgians take Fridays off! It is also, as you know, an expensive process. So far I have received a sample thermoformed single cavity, and it was fine. Mine is a very simple demisphere (or hemisphere, whichever term you prefer), but a midsize between the quite small one that is very common and the next size, which is huge. The minimum order was 100 molds, so I'll be hoping to sell some of them. Now I am waiting for a full injection mold sample, then the whole order will be manufactured.
The other company I mentioned earlier in this thread, Micelli, makes the molds in this country. The owner did finally get in touch (apparently there was a glitch in their website--I don't know what happened to the voicemail I left). Once I saw the extra shipping charges, etc., from Tomric, the prices at the two places are about the same. But you would not be interested in starting from scratch since you are already far along.
I did use the sample thermoformed cavity once. I wanted to see what the weight of a piece would be. It worked fine, but I think scraping it (if you scrape as vigorously as I do) would be a problem in the long term.
If you want to know more about my experience, just ask. And if you wish to buy some nice brand-new demisphere molds, maybe around Thanksgiving, just let me know.
3 hours ago, pastrygirl said:Since this is the custom mold topic -
I've gone through a couple of design stages with Tomric and have the pretty bar without too many corners I was looking for. I've been doing the cheaper thermo-formed molds instead of the injection polycarbonate that we are used to in professional molds because of price, but now I'm so torn. I've been trying to convince myself I can make them work, and I'm sure I can, but I also want durability and what can I say, I like nice toys. I usually hold molds in my left hand and scrape with my right. These feel unstable for that, I'll try a bar or rack over my melter to rest them on while scraping.
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If I stay with the cheap ones, total project is around $ for 60 molds. If I switch now, it's another $800. Which isn't that much if I sell tens of thousands of chocolate bars over the next few years, which of course is the plan. Will I be happier making them all with heavier molds? Hmmm.
What would you do? Stay cheap or go big?
I have never regretted spending the $ when I'm in the thick of things (e.g., running a little late ) and having the extra weight/size/the right tool for the job. Having the wrong tool makes my life miserable. Will you be thankful every time you can scrape the molds without worrying you're exerting too much pressure? How much aggravation will it be to have to deal with the bar or rack to rest them on (I feel like I'm speaking a different language - I have no idea what scraping, a bar, a rack or a melter IS! LOL) So yes, spend the $ now, you will be happy you did later. The return on the investment will happen.
3 hours ago, pastrygirl said:I usually hold molds in my left hand and scrape with my right. These feel unstable for that, I'll try a bar or rack over my melter to rest them on while scraping.
Uhm, why are you scraping a molded chocolate bar? Did you include a ganache or something else?
If the bar is pure chocolate, then it's better to pour the desired amount of chocolate into the mold (if you don't have a machine like the ones by Selmi, then use a ladle / pastry bag and a scale), then vibrate it. There's no need to scrape the mold, doing so is less efficient, plus it's a nightmare if the molds are a bit flexible.
There is also another option: really thin thermo-formed molds (less than 0.02 inches), not re-usable, to be sold with the bar. This is what we did at the chocolatier where I staged years ago: put the molds on a pan (9 molds on each pan, 3x3), pour chocolate on each mold (having a Selmi with the automatic dosing mechanism helped a bit, but using a scale doesn't take more than scraping), vibrate the pan, let the chocolate set, then package the mold (with the bar still inside) in the carton box. Those kind of molds come pretty cheap (much less than a dollar) if you buy them in good numbers (more than ). They have various advantages: they help about packaging; they are an added value at the eyes of the customers; your costs are totally predictable (meaning you don't risk to break/ruin some sturdy molds and re-buy them); you save time on cleaning molds; it's more difficult for the bar to break during handling / storing / shipping.
Teo
18 hours ago, pastrygirl said:Yes, they all have layers of filling, I don't do anything plain. Since I'm not making bean to bar but using already made chocolate, I feel like I have to add something special.
Understood. In this case then just go big, spend more now to save much more later. You need to think about molds durability too: if you spend 1/2 now, but the molds will get ruined in 1/4 of the time, then you save money now, but you will loose later. There's not much sense to go the middle way on these things.
I would strongly suggest to add plain bars to your production. I understand your reasons, especially with producer eyes, but the customers have a different view. Plain bars are always a good pull for other sales, meaning that most probably if you add them to your product choice then your sales of filled bars will increase too. The market for plain bars is way bigger than the market for filled ones. A person searching to buy a couple of plain bars will not stop at your business since you don't carry them; if you have them, it's possible he/she will add a filled one for curiosity or else. If in your market you are competing with a good number of bean-to-bar producers, then try to limit your costs, it's easier to sell a $4 bar (re-melted from Valrhona or others) than a $8 bar (prices for bean to bar operations are always much bigger).
I would also suggest to go to a library and look for a couple of books regarding psychology applied to marketing. It's one of the best time investment a producer can make, there's a lot of stuff to learn on these things, a good amount of them are counter-intuitive.
Teo
Chocolate molds, better ones anyway, are made with polycarbonate, which generally contains BPA or a related chemical. These chemicals have gotten a lot of press for mimicking hormones. I have seen some BPA free molds but they're still a rarity.
Does BPA enter the chocolate during molding? Is contact too brief? Temps too low? Or are we just turning a blind eye?
In short, the answer is we don’t know.
There is just no data out there so it leaves answering the question to speculation and my background in chemistry. In some places that is called ‘speculation’. Or an ‘educated guess’. Basically, I’m ‘theorizing’. But since I’m not giving concrete conclusions, it can at least be said that I am not ‘making sh!t up’ !
I am rather glad you didn’t get into asking my thoughts on whether BPA is a concern, but that is a real hot spot of contention. Regardless, there was some good data I was able to collect along the way.
BPA is the friendly abbreviation for Bisphenol A. Which is also a friendly name for it’s IUPAC name of 4,4'-(propane-2,2-diyl)diphenol. And thank goodness for standardization as its original name was either p,p'-isopropylidenebisphenol, or 2,2-bis(4-hydroxyphenyl)propane.
It has a solubility in water between 120 and 300 mg/L. It is freely soluble in oils, fats and organic solvents. Because of this later piece of data, it is theorized that the contamination to oily or fatty products (like fish in oil vs fish in water) would be higher, but I could not find one single piece of data to support that assersion….which means to me that people most likely are ‘making sh!t up’.
Part of the reason I say this is there is precious little data to support a direct link between solubility and leaching. They are two different animals as it were. Leaching in the most simplistic terms might be considered surface solubility. But only kind of. Solubility involves a solvent (let’s say water) surrounding and encapsulating the solute (the BPA). It requires the solvent to get between the molecular spaces of the solute in order for it to surround it and carry it off into solution. With leaching, it’s more a matter of what can the ‘solvent’ shake loose and carry away. Analogy time. You have dirt rubbed into your shirt. And the dirt here is powdered rock and sand but also clay and hummus. Stuff that isn’t soluble in water (the rock) and stuff that is soluble in water (the hummus). If you put that shirt in a bucket of water and don’t agitate it you will find that the water starts to color. The soluble hummus is being surrounded by water molecules and carried off. But the sand and rock stay imbedded. It takes agitation to shake them loose or ‘leach’ them from the shirt. Kind of make sense?
As for numbers to show leaching has little correlation to solubility, let’s look at that solubility of BAP vs what is found in two different ‘solvents’. Recall the solubility in water is 120-300 mg/L or ppm. That is the maximum that can go in. The levels found in water are 0.1-10 ug/L. The levels found in liquid baby formula were 0.8-11 ug/L. There are two things to notice here. The first is that the amount found is roughly 1/ the solubility level. Hundreds of parts per MILLION vs parts per BILLION. Next, to me, those two leaching values are basically identical. The ‘high’ fat formula had no noticeable effect on how much was leached. Now, please know, I am NOT saying oil won’t leach more…just that I can’t find any evidence of it. Which is a good thing for chocolate since it is 30-50% oil.
The next bit of good ‘evidence’ for chocolate comes from ‘modes of transmission’. We have looked at how BPA leaches into a liquid over time. But there are other ways for it to transfer. Solid to solid is another way. In the same study that liquid baby formula was looked at, they also examined powdered (high fat) baby formula in lined containers….and only found BPA in one of 14 of the samples. That’s good news. My suspicion why is because the container was rigid and the ‘solvent’ (being a solid) could not knock, brush or liberate any BPA from the surface of the lining (sort of like in a chocolate mold).
And this is kind of confirmed, or at least not contradicted by the fact that one of the highest forms of transfer was from thermal receipts that contain BPA. In this case, although both surfaces (the paper and your hand) are both solids, the contaminated surface was highly flexible so was able to ‘slough’ off BPA readily. Think again to our shirt example. It’s dirty. And so is a rigid baseball cap. If you pick up and handle both, which is going to get more dirt on your hands? Most likely the shirt. It gives, the dirt cracks, and readily falls onto and transfers to your hand. It has a reason to move because it’s being dislodged by physical means.
Temperature does play a role in leaching. Higher temperatures (150-210 F) leach more (2-10x more) but chocolate is not molded anywhere near those temperatures. Good for us. And one final note on leaching. It takes time. When I was in the lab we performed an extraction called a Toxic Characteristic Leaching Procedure (TCLP). In the procedure, we added what we wanted leached into a container with a leaching solution (not even called a solvent) and this was agitated (tumbled actually) for 24-30 HOURS. Which makes sense as the highest contamination is found in water bottles and canned foods where they sit for quite a while and are moved and agitated. My main point here is that time is a critical factor. In a few circumstances we did ‘instantaneous’ leaches for curious customers and found radically reduced leaching rates. Again on the order of 1/100 to 1/ times less.
So, here is what I see and could find in regards to BPA contamination and leaching.
With all that in place, my gut feeling is that the contamination from polycarbonate molds to chocolate should be very low because:
Basically I can’t find any good reason that there should be hardly any transfer at all from polycarbonate molds to molded chocolate. But I want to re-iterate, I am just following a logic and data trail and we don’t know. To know for sure would take an actual analysis. Which honestly I am stunned has not happened and been published. Anyone?
So, to specifically answer your questions:
I don't know if BPA enters chocolate during molding, but evidence indicates probably very little
Yes the contact is too brief and of the 'wrong' type.
Yes the low temperature helps keep it to a minimum No, at this point now, we are not turning a blind eye...but maybe someone should test. That’s my take.
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